Hoď ma hore
Registrácia  |  Zabudnuté heslo
tu sa nachádzate: hlavná stránka  rôzne  téma

Koho NATO ohrozuje viac? USA alebo Rusko?

Tému 2. septembra 2018, 16:39 založil Kaies.

podobné témy:

názov témy
03. 12. 2014
23. 12. 2013

označiť príspevok

Kaies muž
   2. 9. 2018, 16:39 avatar
Otázka postoja k tzv. anexii Krymu odhaľuje riziká, ktorým čelí celá západná spoločnosť. Pre Rusko niet cesty späť, nebola to napokon ani tak veľmi otázka voľby. To západní lídri sa musia rozhodnúť, ako dlho budú odolávať stretu s realitou. Raz to prísť musí. NATO, USA? A čo EÚ? Dôsledky budú pre každého z týchto hráčov iné. Ako sa ktorý z nich bude s nimi vyrovnávať? A najmä, komu sa pripíše zodpovednosť?
Pritom zďaleka nejde len o Krym...

Skvelý článok, ktorý nielen popisuje udalosti. Nechce sa mi ho prekladať, myslím si, že s angličtinou väčšina z Vás problém nemá.

Does Crimea want to become part of Russia?
Alec Bean
Updated Aug 24

If you are not the avid reader type or expect everything dumbed down to a few words, then there is only thing you need to remember. Crimea was already an autonomous region when it was under the Ukraine. An autonomous region is that way for a good reason because it is either politically or culturally not very in sync with the rest of the country. Thus, when the western press insist the Crimeans voted to join Russia “under duress”, it is an obvious lie. An autonomous region doesn’t need anyone to force their hands to break away!

Here are the gory details if you choose to continue.

First of all, Crimea was re-districted from the Russian to Ukrainian republic in 1954 since it didn’t matter at the time because both were local governments to the USSR. It was never meant to be a sovereign transfer from Russia to Ukraine!

Second, the referendum to breakaway from Ukraine in 2014 is *NOT* even the first one! The dissolution of the USSR was a process and not an event. As early as 1990, Ukraine has already declared independence from the USSR (whether the union accepted it or not is a different subject). Within a few months after Ukraine’s declaration, Crimea launched their 1st referendum to seek autonomy within the USSR in Jan 1991. Crimea did NOT wish to remain as an oblast (like a province) of Ukraine should Ukraine indeed become a sovereign nation! The referendum was passed with OVERWHELMING support by * %** of the votes! Because the USSR was still there, Ukraine couldn’t just ignore this referendum. It permitted Crimea to become autonomous in Feb 1991. Granted autonomy is not a sovereign change, but it is a testimony that a compromise is needed to accommodate Crimea who really doesn’t desire to be part of Ukraine to stay under Ukraine and therefore avoid bloodshed.

Similarly, Crimea launched a 2nd referendum in 1994 seeking even greater autonomy, allowing Crimean to have both Ukrainian and Russian citizenship, and giving Crimean presidential decrees the force of law. They are passed by 78%, 82% and 77% of the voters!

What happened next? Without the USSR to protect the will of Crimea, in 1995 the Ukraine unilaterally abolished the post of the President of Crimea and scrapped the Crimean constitution!

There weren’t so called Little Green Men to force the votes in either referendums, were there? However, because there was no one with guns to back up the Crimeans the 2nd time, the Ukrainian government simply ignored their will! The Little Green Men in 2014 made sure the Ukrainian security force couldn’t interfere with the referendum to take place. Ukraine knew once a referendum was held, there would be NO WAY the Crimeans would choose to stay (they witnessed it in 1991 and 1994!) Moreover, once the Crimeans chose to re-join Russia, the Little Green Men were there to make sure Ukraine couldn’t just ignore people’s will as they did previously!

Look at the American Revolutionary War. Did Britain permit the Colonies to break away simply because the Continental Congress voted for independence? A war of over 10 years was fought to make these votes count!

It’s a blatant hypocrisy that the U.S. supports Kiev to overthrow a democratically elected president, calling it self-determination, and yet totally ignore the will of Crimea, demonstrated throughout the past 20+ years since the dissolution of the USSR. If someone wonders why the rest of the world seems OK with the American hypocrisy and Russia is one of the few resenting it, it is because most countries have lined up behind the American leadership. When the boss wins, we win too! Hypocrisy?! What is that? Russia will *NOT* line up behind the American leadership. That is the way they are, and the U.S. has no right to demand it!

In case you are not aware, diplomatic recognition is rife with political conveniences than based on righteousness. For example, the U.S. severed its diplomatic relation with Taiwan in 1978 in order to establish it with China. China demands all nations must cut tie with Taiwan or jeopardize the tie with them. Now fast forward 40 years, El Salvador finally followed the U.S.’s footstep to cut tie with Taiwan and build one with China. Guess what, the U.S. ambassador to El Salvador, Jean Manes, tweeted that the decision “is worrisome for many reasons” and “without doubt this will impact our relationship with the government.” Florida Sen. Marco Rubio threatened to block funding for El Salvador, accusing it of being “against the U.S. on everything.” “Why should we keep sending them so much foreign aid? Today I will begin work to end that.” www.washingtonpost.com Tento odkaz smeruje mimo DF.sk.... Wait a minute, is cutting tie with Taiwan and building one with China the wrong thing to do? If it is, then why the U.S. did it itself? Similarly, if Crimea under Russia is not recognized by the U.S. and that decision is copied by all U.S. allies, it shows only one thing: it is politically inconvenient for the U.S. and principle has NOTHING to do with it!

(As a side note and not related to the main topic: Many westerners argue they don’t understand what the Russians mean by demanding to be treated as equal. They would cite the org charts of major international organizations and insist the U.S. and Russia are side by side on these charts and therefore equal. Org charts are NOT the point! Equal means don’t try to impose all these double standards on Russia. Case in point, Kiev’s right is being upheld because they are U.S. allies, but Crimea’s right is being trampled because they choose to ally with Russia. Another example is NATO has expanded 81% since the Cold War. While the U.S. defends this development as people’s self-determination, it conveniently forgets when Nicaragua or other central American countries exercising their determination to ally with the USSR, the U.S. subverted everyone of these governments. If the country is small enough like Grenada, the U.S. invaded directly! We further lie to ourselves that since Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) would prevent the U.S. and Russia from going to war directly, NATO expansion cannot possibly be threatening for Russia. Well, MAD existed during the Cold War too, but the U.S. certainly didn’t tolerate the Soviet expansion in central America! I can actually write a book on these double standards, but I hope you get the point. Some people may argue hypocrisy so be it. The U.S. would assert our national interest and ours only. Let the Russians worry about theirs! We can afford to think this way in the early 90’s when the U.S. was the only game in town. The time has changed! China is now another game. All these hypocrisies are pushing Russia to abandon the U.S. and ally with China instead! Chinese money + Russian military technology = accelerated American decline!)

The pro-Kiev activists like to emphasize by firing at the protestors, Yanukovych has lost the legitimacy as a democratically elected president. Really? There are reports now arguing the protestors started the violence fist, The untold story of the Maidan massacre, and it’s by a western media, the BBC! Regardless of who fired first, it is silly to argue there is a legitimate way to start a revolution, and conversely, a proper way to crack it down! A revolution is a civil war, and people die in a war! Eventually, no matter who did what to whom, the loser will be assigned all faults because history is written by those who won! History further teaches us a country often splits when parties of opposing agenda cannot come to an agreement in a revolution. Even if Yanukovych indeed fired at the protestors first, it is of no concerns to the people of Crimea because they support Yanukovych! It’s like Kiev wouldn’t care less for the civilian causalities in the Donbass because “it’s their causalities, not ours!” If the killing of civilians automatically de-legitimize a government, then this new government in Kiev is the least legitimate of all after killing 3000 civilians in the Donbass (vs Yanukovych’s 50 deaths at Maidan)!

Further, by accusing the restoration of Crimea back to Russia as failure to guarantee Ukraine’s security and therefor a breach of the Budapest Moratorium, the U.S. (also a party to the treaty) has conveniently forgotten John McCain and Victoria Nuland were both willing participants of a revolution to overthrow a democratically elected government! Ukraine’s security was already violated the minute McCain and Nuland arrived at Maidan. While the U.S. has trashed this treaty first, it continues to expect Russia to hold up its end of the bargain. The world does NOT operate this way!

Obviously this is a power struggle of the U.S. and Russia and not high ideology anymore. I know some smart ass would fraudulently claim the 1994 referendum doesn’t portray the sentiment in Crimea anymore. The fact that the Crimeans haven’t pursued another referendum between 1994 and 2014 indicates they have changed, and they love Ukraine nowadays, etc. Why would Crimea pursue another referendum if Kiev would simply override it like they did in 1995? This all changed when the Little Green Men showed up in 2014. Crimea can no longer be ignored by Kiev!

Look at this 2010 presidential electoral map when an ethnic Russian, Janukovych (Yanukovych), won against an ethnic Ukrainian, Tymoshenko. 70+% in Crimea and 90+% in Luhansk & Donetsk voted for the ethnic Russian! Does anyone not notice the Crimeans were just as pro-Russia as they did back in 1994? I’m not surprised some folks would claim again WITHOUT PROOF that the Crimeans have changed since 2010 and thus by the time of the revolution in 2014, they were supporting Kiev (Kyiv) instead. Use your intelligence against these baseless claims! The 1994 referendum was passed with 70+% support to gain greater autonomy. 16 years later the 2010 election shows 70+% of the Crimeans continued to be very pro-Russia. However, per these pro-Kiev activists, Crimea all the sudden turned pro-Kiev from 2010 to 2014!? Show me some SOLID proof because talk is cheap! A few statistics by some shady publications don’t count. These pro-Kiev activists would further assert now in 2018 Crimea, Luhansk & Donetsk have finally turned to support Kiev. Really? After a bloody civil war that killed 7,000 people on the separatist side in Luhansk and Donetsk (3000 civilians and 3500–4500 fighters, Casualties of the Ukrainian crisis - Wikipedia), they believe Kiev has finally earned the heart and soul of these regions! Calling these guys delusional is an understatement!

Lastly, some pro-Kiev activists would try to argue Crimea’s historic tie to Russia is irrelevant. They would assert if history matters, then California should belong to Mexico, etc. I think they have a good point! However, what these guys have conveniently disregarded is that borders are *NOT STATIC* (since history is irrelevant as they have insisted!) Not a single country in the world has had the same border since the beginning of time. Empires rise and fall, and countries expand and contract as a result of wars or revolutions. A revolution is in itself violating a constitution. Thus, it is oxymoron to claim entitlement to the same territory laid out by the previous constitution. Just like many other revolutions resulting in divided countries (e.g. China and Taiwan have been divided since 1949 upon the communist revolution), Kiev fails to win the support of the Crimean people upon the revolution in 2014. What more is there to debate? A REVOLUTION IS NOT AN ALA CARTE MENU THAT YOU CAN CUSTOMIZE THE RESULT!

In case you wonder why you should believe my words, even though I have referenced all my views to publicly available resources, please watch this interview with the esteemed U.S. Ambassador, Jack Matlock. I encourage you to watch the entire video. If you are pressed for time, at least focus on the section from 6:56 to 8:05 where he states the Crimeans would prefer to be in Russia and don’t want to be in Ukraine!

Zdroj: www.quora.com Tento odkaz smeruje mimo DF.sk
Súhlasí Boris, nrbatas

označiť príspevok

Scarlette žena
   2. 9. 2018, 16:42 avatar
dlhééééé , ale najblizsie si precitam. teraz nie som vo forme

označiť príspevok

Kaies muž
   2. 9. 2018, 16:47 avatar
Prajem Ti, aby si sa čím skôr dostala do formy, ver mi, stojí to za to.
Aj ja som mal bujarú noc, ale hlava ma už bolieť prestala.
Súhlasí Scarlette, nrbatas

označiť príspevok

Scarlette žena
   2. 9. 2018, 18:52 avatar
4. Kaies ja som nebola chlastat . ale zober sa ma niekedy so sebou, vy musite byt fajna spolocnost ok idem si pre cafe a potom sa do toho pustim

označiť príspevok

Kaies muž
   2. 9. 2018, 16:45 avatar
Z článku vyplýva tiež jedna veľmi zaujímavá otázka. Koľko má NATO členov? Sú to naozaj členovia? Nakoľko je ich rozhodovanie autonómne a suverénne?

označiť príspevok

Osvietený muž
   2. 9. 2018, 16:57 avatar
nato najviac ohrozuje sople ktoré majú miesto mozgov šíriteľov dezinfošiek krymčatá ako je ardzun , Boris a podobné humorné bábky kremeľské .

Koľko má nato členov a či sú to členské štáty aliancie kolektívnej obrany nie je vôbec tajomstvo .

sk.wikipedia.org Tento odkaz smeruje mimo DF.sk

označiť príspevok

Kaies muž
   2. 9. 2018, 17:57 avatar
5. Osvietený, ten článok som sem nedal pre Teba. Neviem, čím Ťa oslovil a prečo cítiš potrebu reagovať. Z Tvojej reakcie je úplne jasné to, čo som čakal. Článok si nepochopil, ak si ho vôbec čítal. Radšej nereaguj, ak sa nechceš strápňovať, ale máš na to právo.

označiť príspevok

ardzun muž
   2. 9. 2018, 17:40

Príspevok bol vymazaný administrátorom.

označiť príspevok

Osvietený muž
   2. 9. 2018, 18:18 avatar
Kaies infovojak slobodných vysieračov zem a vekov to musíš napísať do predu . Napríklad k članku dodaj tento članok na verejnom fore je len pre Borisa a Ardzuna . Ak majú čas môžu prísť napísať nejakú mudrosť ako sa u ardzuna už i stalo .
Chápem tvoju frustráciu že na moje slová reagovať nevieš . Ale zase si toľko never že by si mne zakazoval na čo môžem reagovať a na čo nie . Ja od teba odpoveď neočakávam ale zase si sa len neudržal vždy len píšeš aký si hrdina a ako na moje slová reagovať nebudeš ale nikdy to i tak nevydržíš     a tak badaj na konspi strankach qko z nato a EU vystupiť aby tu už kruci raz bol poriadok ako v neutralnej ukrajine , gruzínsku , osetsku , abchadzku , podnestersku a najnovšie v Moldavsku    

označiť príspevok

Kaies muž
   2. 9. 2018, 18:26 avatar
8. Ja Ti nič nezakazujem, len odporúčam. Článok je pre všetkých, ktorí sa chcú niečo dozvedieť a zamyslieť sa. To však viditeľne nie je Tvoj prípad. Píšeš tu samé bezduché riekanky, mierne oplzlé a obsahujúce osobné útoky a mne ani nie je jasné, aký je Tvoj názor, ak vôbec nejaký názor máš. Takže ak chceš reagovať, tak reaguj, ale myslím si, že tým neobohatíš ani seba, ani ostatných.
Súhlasí panoramix, nrbatas

označiť príspevok

Boris muž
   2. 9. 2018, 18:37 avatar
Presne tak, hranice niesu nič statické. Presúvajú sa celé dejiny ľudstva.
Teda o čom to západ drísta, keď sa domáha Krymu, ktorý jednoducho nechce byť s Ukrajinou?!
Je to také žalostné volanie do vetra.
Že sú západniari ochotní biť svojich ľudí ako žito, keď sa chcú osamostatniť, sme v Katalánsku videli a teda je jasné, čo by následovalo pre krymčanov, ak by sa k Rusku nepripojili. Žiadna ľudskoprávna org nepovedala ani fň.. Pokrytectvo až za hrob.
Súhlasí panoramix, nrbatas

označiť príspevok

Osvietený muž
   2. 9. 2018, 21:09 avatar
Kaies mňa zujíma naša krajina to je priorita . Naša krajina ma základný ekonomický ale i hodnotový pilier členstvo v EU . Za vstup v referende do EU hlasovalo 92 % voličov .
Pilier najlacnejšej a najefektívnejšej obrany našej krajiny je kolektívna obrana . V referende o vstupe do nato v roku 1997 sa vyjadrilo proti vstupu dost debilne postavenýh otazok hlasovalo 1 % voličov .
Nebranim sa aby sa tieto referenda i opakovali . Všetko iné sú len krčmove reči .

Komu škodí že je slovensko v nato to naozaj netuším . Komu to prospieva je jasne našej krajine .
Ak si však väčšina slovakov myslí že by sme mohli mať napríklad ukrajinsku neutralitu môže urobiť referendum . Ak sa odchod odhlasuje nepoiviem vôbec nič .

Toľko môj postreh .
Súhlasí Scarlette

označiť príspevok

Boris muž
   2. 9. 2018, 21:15 avatar
Trošku skresluješ informácie Osvietený. Referenda sa zúčastnilo len 44 percent voličov, čiže za nemohlo hlasovať 92 percent voličov to za prvé a za druhé referendum nebolo platné.

sk.wikipedia.org Tento odkaz smeruje mimo DF.sk
Súhlasí nrbatas

označiť príspevok

-era- muž
   2. 9. 2018, 21:17 avatar
Súhlasí Boris, nrbatas

označiť príspevok

Boris muž
   2. 9. 2018, 21:19 avatar
Áno, moja reč o NATO, on o EU.
Súhlasí -era-, nrbatas

označiť príspevok

Boris muž
   2. 9. 2018, 21:21 avatar
Bah za Nato sa ani len nekonalo, bo absurne malá účasť. To bolo o privatizácii.
To bolo o privatízácii.

označiť príspevok

Boris muž
   2. 9. 2018, 21:17 avatar
S čím ale plne s tebou súhlasím je, že by sa toto referendum malo zopakovať, lebo vstup je vlastne neplatný. Dá sa to dokonca krásne právne zohľadniť, ak by sme chceli vystúpiť, nemôže nikto povedať ani makké fň.

označiť príspevok

Kaies muž
   3. 9. 2018, 16:13 avatar
12. Osvietený, toto beriem. Toto je názor.
Aj mňa zaujíma naša krajina a je to pre mňa priorita. A ak členstvo v EÚ je pre našu krajinu ekonomickým i hodnotovým pilierom, tak som za. Aj preto som v referende hlasoval za vstup.

Možno ani nemáme až tak odlišné názory, ako sa zdá. A asi vyznávame aj podobné hodnoty. Vyzerá to tak, že tým rozdielom medzi nami je, že ja mám v týchto otázkach viac pochybností ako Ty. A to je dané aj tým, že každý z nás pracuje a pohybuje sa v inej oblasti a preto máme odlišné skúsenosti a pohľad na svet.

označiť príspevok

nrbatas muž
   3. 9. 2018, 22:21 avatar
20. Podobné hodnoty...  A počas pracovnej doby... 

označiť príspevok

Scarlette žena
   3. 9. 2018, 23:06 avatar
12. skoda ze som si nevsimla skor . osvieteny kalap dole

označiť príspevok

Scarlette žena
   2. 9. 2018, 23:32 avatar
Keď si spojíme dohromady fakt, že Rusi sa na Kryme stali národnostnou väčšinou až v máji 1944, s faktom že Krym bol prevedený pod správu Ukrajiny vo februári 1954, vychádza nám šokujúci záver: Krym bol skutočne ruský púhych 9 rokov a 9 mesiacov. Toto je obdobie, na ktorom môže stavať ruská politika, keď hlása, že Krym bol vždy ruský.

garassy.blog.sme.sk Tento odkaz smeruje mimo DF.sk
Súhlasí Osvietený

označiť príspevok

nrbatas muž
   3. 9. 2018, 22:36 avatar
Fajn, Scarlette. Pokojne "spájaj fakty dohromady". Len tam (na Krym) nechoď. Hrozí Ti tam reálne nebezpečenstvo, že by si bola ovplyvnená. A nehľadaj ani na nete ďalšie informácie a svedectvá. Aj keby neboli ruské. Pretože tým prídeš o to najcennejšie. Nezávislosť.  

označiť príspevok

Scarlette žena
   3. 9. 2018, 23:04 avatar
22. ja len ze krym v pohode, ale u ineho je to ukradnute kosovo inak ma to netankuje, nech sa tam aj vyzabijaju

označiť príspevok

nrbatas muž
   3. 9. 2018, 23:47 avatar
23. Áno, presne tak. Nezávislosť, to je hodnota! Preto si ju chráń.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKkdkYk8Ba4 Tento odkaz smeruje mimo DF.sk
Súhlasí Scarlette

označiť príspevok

Scarlette žena
   2. 9. 2018, 23:33 avatar
cely clanok je tendencny a blbost, sorryyy
váš príspevok

Pridávať príspevky môžu iba zaregistrovaní účastníci fóra.

Som zaregistrovaný

nick: heslo:
zostať trvalo prihlásený    
Nie som zaregistrovaný

Vaša prezývka:  

Po zaregistrovaní budete automaticky presmerovaní do tejto témy.

najnovšie príspevky na celom fóre

dnes, 15:04,  Aspoň elf zabáva
dnes, 15:03,  Edo a úvaha ? :)
dnes, 14:57,  Osvietený - to bolo "silné" ty "génius ducha" malomocných.
dnes, 14:57,  havran ty predpokladaš že kôl v plote nebol multimilionar ??? Prečo si to myslíš ???...
dnes, 14:55,  Osvietený - ty vieš prd o tom, kto sú moji súputníci. Tebe je však škoda niečo...
dnes, 14:54,  Príde mi to také humorné keď mi psychiatrický pacient kladie otázku ako Kasafran či Ty...
dnes, 14:52,  Havran tu maš svojich suputnikov a hakoveho SS ktorý ich denne glorifikuje...
dnes, 14:52,  Osvietený - máš to v tej hlavičke pomotané, keď nerozlíšiš otázku od argumentu. To sa...
dnes, 14:50,  Edo SS sa o nič iné ani vo svojej úbohej malodušnosti ani o nič iné nemôže snažiť.
dnes, 14:48,  Osvietený - ako richádzaš na takú debilnú úvahu?
dnes, 14:43,  Osvietený a to sami nepáči, keď tak "bohorovne" trieskaš výmysly. Keby bol taký...
dnes, 14:41,  Skoro :) Oslavovaný Hollywood :)
dnes, 14:40,  era k tomu spanku pred nabýtkom , čedokom , mototechnou , mäsnou , či tuzexom atď . Vystihol...
dnes, 14:39,  Poznate??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQ_K6TQx8o
dnes, 14:38,  Kasafran tvoja argumentácia ma neprekvapuje a beriem ju ako ocenenie .
dnes, 14:37,  era inak je kontrolovaná hygiena pôvod potravín ich testovanie ba ani na kilo masa netreba...
dnes, 14:36,  4/ Ako u nas na Luniku!!!:)))
dnes, 14:35,  era samozrejme na zapade boli bohatí a chudobní a v komunizme chudobní a chudobnejší.
dnes, 14:30,  MASAKEEEER !
dnes, 14:05,  Nikdy neboli všetci chudobní a nikdy neboli všetci bohatí. A ani to tak nie je ani teraz a...
df.sk na Facebooku
Pokiaľ sú v manželskom vzťahu problémy, tak na vine sú obe strany - ako žena, tak aj svokra.
Prevádzkuje df.sk | TOPlist
(106 722 bytes in 0,348 seconds)